KYIV — Ukraine’s president is trying to win over MAGA world.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy sat for a three-hour interview with American podcaster Lex Fridman, whose podcasts often attract millions of Donald Trump-supporting conservative U.S. Republicans who detest mainstream media.
Fridman has said he also hoped to interview Kremlin chief Vladimir Putin in January, aiming “to find the path for peace,” as the Russia-Ukraine war grinds on.
In the episode published Sunday, Zelenskyy seasoned his political messaging with jokes and cursing, curated to appeal to a pro-Trump audience who are often hostile to him. And it seemed to have the desired effect as even Trump adviser Elon Musk, normally sarcastic about Zelenskyy, reposted the interview with no comment.
POLITICO watched all three hours of the chat and here are the five top takeaways:
Massaging Trump’s ego
Zelenskyy flattered Trump — the U.S. president-elect and a skeptic of continuing to send weapons to Ukraine — during the conversation. He said Trump is the only one who can force Putin to stop the war, start negotiations and give Ukraine strong security guarantees that would prevent Russia from further aggression.
He added that Trump won the 2024 U.S. election because he was tougher than Democrats Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, and demonstrated he is strong by “doing all those rallies.”
“He is young. He is young here,” Zelenskyy said, pointing at his heart, “and his brain works.” Many Ukrainians believe Trump is capable of ending the war in a just way — if he gets maximum information from sources on the ground.
Zelenskyy also said that if Trump decides to withdraw the U.S. from the NATO military alliance, this would enable Putin to attack the parts of Europe that used to be under Soviet control.
“Putin would like to see a weak NATO without Trump. And a weak Ukraine, which cannot survive on the battlefield, simply cannot survive,” Zelenskyy said.
Putin also wants to prevent Zelenskyy from “building a strong relationship with Trump,” the Ukrainian leader warned.
Lukashenko apologized for war
Zelenskyy recounted a story in which, several days after the start of the full-scale Russian invasion in February 2022, Belarus’ authoritarian ruler Alexander Lukashenko apologized to him during a phone call for letting Putin strike Ukraine from Belarusian territory.
“’Volodymyr, this is not me. I’m not in charge,’ he told me, ‘I’m not in charge. These are just missiles. This is Putin.’ I told him, ‘Don’t do that. You are a murderer too.’ He told me, ‘You must understand, you can’t fight the Russians.’ I told him that we never fought them. I said, ‘It’s war. The missiles came from your land, from Belarus. How did you allow this?'” Zelenskyy said.
Lukashenko then apparently made the strange offer that Ukraine could retaliate by striking the Mozyr oil refinery, a key Belarusian asset. Ukraine hasn’t hit that refinery.
Lukashenko’s press office on Monday denied that he had apologized to Zelenskyy.
“No apologies were made by the president of Belarus to Zelenskyy, for the simple reason that we have nothing to apologize for,” Lukashenko’s press secretary Natalia Eismont told Russia’s RBC television.
Does Putin love Russians?
Fridman claimed it would be very difficult for Zelenskyy to negotiate with Putin if he thought the Kremlin leader was completely crazy.
Instead, Zelenskyy has to “look at him as a serious person who loves his country and loves the people in his country.”
Zelenskyy disagreed, joking bitterly that Putin loves Russians to the extent, “he would strangle them … kill them with love.”
“He does not love his people. He loves his inner circle. It’s only a small part of the people. He doesn’t love them. Why? I’ll explain. You cannot send your people to another land knowing that they will die … He came to our (land) and he sent them to Chechnya. He sent them to Syria, he sent them to Africa. He sent them Georgia,” Zelenskyy said.
Questions on corruption
Zelenskyy claimed that Ukraine has created probably the most sophisticated anti-corruption system in all of Europe.
Although he said he still believes all anti-corruption institutions can work better, Kyiv has fulfilled most reforms demanded by the EU and U.S. and battled oligarchy, Zelenskyy said. Corruption still exists in Ukraine, he admitted, but it takes time to eliminate it completely.
The EU has acknowledged the progress but said that the fight against corruption and judicial reform still needs a lot of work. Zelenskyy claimed Ukraine is tackling everyone who tries to make money off of the war.
“We did not profit from the war. If we found someone, believe me, we punished everyone severely, and we did that and will continue to do so,” he said.
Zelenskyy then tried to shift focus, saying that what is described as “corruption” in Ukraine is called “lobbying” in other countries.
Language barrier
Fridman, who grew up in Moscow, said that the conversation would be most impactful if conducted in Russian, as not only is it a language both speak fluently, but also to get Russians and Putin to listen.
Zelenskyy politely declined.
Zelenskyy said that on the day he spoke to Fridman, Russia had launched 73 missile strikes and over 100 drones against Ukraine. “The people who attack us, they speak Russian. They attack people who were only recently told that this was actually in defense of Russian-speaking people, and this is why I respect neither the leader or director of today’s Russia nor the people,” Zelenskyy said.
Zelenskyy said he did not want to give Putin the chance to once again state Ukrainians are the same as Russians just because many speak Russian.
He also said he tried to address Russians in their language at the beginning of the war, but the message was ignored.
In the end, the interview took place partly in English, Russian and Ukrainian — and Fridman published using AI dubbing across languages.